RPG Marketing Postulate

[stevekenson]

Any RPG that does not have all components needed to play it (including dice, character sheets, minis, etc.) packaged with it, will never break into the mass market. Discuss.

Comments

[rickj.livejournal.com]

I suspect you could get away with leaving out dice if all you needed were a couple of d6's or a deck of standard playing cards as randomizers.

[xomec.livejournal.com]

Perhaps, the postulate is that you can't, but a couple d6s or a standard deck of cards might fall into the "common household items" category like expecting players will have pens or pencils handy.

[whisper-jeff.livejournal.com]

Correction: No RPG will ever break into the mass market.

D&D, for all of its success, is not a mass market product, in my opinionated opinion. It has sold in mass market stores, but it is not a mass market product. Hobbiest shopping in mass market stores does not a mass market product make.

Yes, semantics, I'm sure, but there's my two cents and, lately, two Canadian cents are worth a lot. ;)

[xomec.livejournal.com]

Like true no RPG-as-we-know it will ever be a mass market success. That said, for the purposes of this discussion, let's read "break into the mass market" as "break out of the RPG ghetto" (if, indeed, that's possible).

[whisper-jeff.livejournal.com]

That being the case, then I believe a game must contain all elements required to play minus the sole exception (possibly *) of a pen/pencil. Dice would be required (when was the last time you bought a game of Yatze without dice? Or Monopoly? Everything required to play included with the product or it will not successfully break out of the rpg ghetto.

* A pen/pencil is a possible exception but, if you include character sheets to be filled in with unique information (in other words, not pre-created characters with every detail already on the sheet), I would lean towards saying including it is necessary. Virtually every mass-market game that requires writing of any sort includes a golf pencil. I would say an RPG that expects writing should similarly include a golf pencil.

[uberdude.livejournal.com]

A pencil(s) with a good eraser(s) :)

[maliszew.livejournal.com]

I'm inclined to agree with Jeff on this one, even with your further precision. Anything we, as gamers, would recognize as a RPG isn't going to break out of the ghetto, however complete it is. I think it's possible a RPG-like thing might be able to do so (those murder mystery party games except not) and in that case, yes, the game would need to be complete in one "box" (whether it's literally a box or not).

[anaka.livejournal.com]

But there have been times and products where it could be argued that it was a mass market item. Granted, the 80's were a weird and wonderful time, between the cartoon series and certain boxed "games" that appeared everywhere from Wal-Mart to Toys 'r Us, but still.

[righteousfist.livejournal.com]

This brings in an interesting question of packaging. To correctly put all of this stuff together in a way that is sellable in the mass market, you remove the ability of it to be browsed through like a book. Which means that EVERYTHING needed to draw the person into purchasing the game must be on the exterior of the packaging, or be communicated to them through other means like commercials or active demos. You have to reduce it to the level of "It's Monopoly. You buy and sell stuff and make money."

[xomec.livejournal.com]

It does indeed raise packaging issues; boxed sets used to work for RPGs, but now the default is big hardcover books, the presumption being the prospective buyer already has more than enough dice, maps, minis, etc. (or can easily acquire them).

[wordwill.livejournal.com]

The presumption also being that the buyer is not new to RPGs, despite whatever lip service paid inside. Have we, as a hobby, given up on the idea of attracting new players through anything other than homebrew networking?

[xomec.livejournal.com]

Have we, as a hobby, given up on the idea of attracting new players through anything other than homebrew networking?

I'd ask if we, as a hobby, have ever really tried attracting new players through anything other than homebrew networking. Have "beginner's guides" and "quick-start" packages done anything to bring in new players, or are they just tools to make the job of the aforementioned homebrew network (somewhat) easier?

[cassandra-e.livejournal.com]

There are boxes that have a "front cover" that opens to expose more space for explanation/attractive product photos. I have seen them on computer games, boxes of kids' adhesive bandages, and various things in between. That type of box - which also gives a little feel of "book" - might work as packaging for a mass-market RPG.

[hackard.livejournal.com]

Put me in the "RPGs will never break out" column. These days, the games that sell are simple card/board games or computer/console games. People don't want to spend hours learning to play a game that doesn't have fancy graphics and Leeroy Jenkins.

There will always be a niche market that DOES want to play RPGs and similar complex analog games, but as that market ages, it's not replacing itself.

[xomec.livejournal.com]

People don't want to spend hours learning to play a game that doesn't have fancy graphics and Leeroy Jenkins.

Which begs the question: can you have a tabletop RPG, that's still recognizable as such, that doesn't take hours to learn how to play?

[whisper-jeff.livejournal.com]

Yes and no.

Yes. Look at things like How to Host a Murder. They are role-playing games. People can get all snooty and claim that they aren't, but they are. And they're easy to understand and anyone can do it.

No. A long term game with a perpetual character that grows, advances, and develops requires a level of detail that takes more than a simple run-through to explain.

So, yes and no, depending on how forgiving you are with your description of "rpg."

[gamerguy.livejournal.com]

I've read a lot about the related topic of 'How do people learn to play RPGs?' To me, the idea that someone would pick an RPG off the Borders shelf cold, without having an idea of what an RPG is is just bizarre. I can't imagine someone would do that and not be hopelessly confused as to just what they had purchased later. Most games to a terrible job of describing what they are and how to play them.

I've never know anyone to get into the hobby this way, but several people on ENWorld have assured me that people do. (Of course, if I said that we played in the nude and only used d4's, at least two people would say 'We've done that for years, now!'). Every single person I've ever known to get involved in RPGs has become involved in them because a friend taught them how to play. With that in mind, an RPG can take about 20 minutes to learn to play; they describe what dice to roll and what each die is, and that's generally it. You learn by doing.

In our group, my best friend's daughter started playing in our D&D 3.5 session. She'd never played much before; maybe two sessions of something simple. Second session, she says her boyfriend wants to join us, and he's never seen a tabletop RPG before, though most of the basic concepts he knows from having played WoW and other computer RPGs. He owns nothing for the game and two sessions later he's asking his own questions about what feats to take, what spells he should learn, etc.

The learning curve for other games drops drastically after that, I think. I taught people to play Savage Worlds in about 15 minutes, since at it's heart it only have one page of rules. All else is just alaboration on those points if you're not playing a mage. The mages, it took me about an additional five minutes.

[kosmic.livejournal.com]

It would probably help to have a set of rules that are streamlined. So the player could pick a card with game stats and a mini. Make it incredibly easy, like Tri-stat+True 20 where you have a baseline stat of 0 (average) to +3 (top form) in stats that emulate things people recognize, like Power, Speed and maybe Wit? If you add skills at all, I would have no more than 10 done similar to Star Wars saga.

The first thing I thought of when reading your post was the old Marvel Super Heroes game which I played in Junior High (it was a catholic school, D&D was forbidden, but Superheroes were ok). We learned the game over one lunch hour, and continued to play it for quite some sessions. The little cards with the picture of the character on one side and the stats on the other made it easy, even though it had a learning curve.

Still its a very valid question. Hero Clix is on the edge of being an RPG if you pushed the limits, but I have no idea what kind of market share it has.

[vestribear.livejournal.com]

Anything we develop that is intended for Mass Market, MUST have everything you need in one box or else stores won't even look at it to carry it. For the most part parents don't want to think. Packaging is supper important and it has to be apparent that everything they need to play is right there in their grubby hands.

I could only think that Mass Market item for an RPG company to be more of a promotional attempt to draw more people to going to the hobby stores to get the real goods. Thats how it worked for me and getting into D&D, way back when, lol.

You also have to remember Mass Market also means cheap cheap cheap, they want it at a discount. So can you manufacture something cheap enough and still have good enough quality and not sacrifice game content.

Hey they don't need a Prepublication/Production manager do they?? LOL

[gamerguy.livejournal.com]

I could see that. If I knew nothing at all about RPGs I'd certainly not like it if, after hearing Bob and Mary talk about their game over the water cooler, went out and purchased Mutants and Monsters only to find when I got it home that I needed other things of additional expense that might be quite hard to find if I'm not blessed with a games shop (I'm assuming that hypothetical me would pick this up at B&N or Borders) - the dice being the main thing.

This is one reason I'd like to see more games that used just d6's. They are cheap and it's more likely than not you already have some. If not, you can literally pick them up at the grocery store or buy a game of Yahtzee. It's less of a barrier to entry. Cards would be better, if someone could figure out a decent card-based way of doing things; Castle Falkenstien and Dragonlance SAGA did that and it seemed like it would work out fine but I've never played either of those systems, just read about them. I don't know the downsides to using cards.

I can't really say if I'd take the game back to the store over such an inconvenience. After all, it's not like a computer game where I'll be playing it in solitude and other people will have dice. I've known people who've gamed for years and mooched every single thing they need for the practice of the hobby off someone else at the table.

Part of me certainly would not mind a return to the days of the boxed game, but that also means you couldn't look through something before buying it. There are only a few things I'll buy sight unseen and I would almost never do it for something I'm going to try for the first time. A few sheets of punch-out counters in the box would be very nice, but I doubt failure to include minis would be much of a hinderance.

[eytan-bernstein.livejournal.com]

It might be helpful if people don't even realize they're playing an RPG. As mentioned, there are products that are essentially RPGs, but not really marketed or packaged as such. Perhaps the stigma of geekiness (or possibly fundamentalist criticisms) pulls people away, but if the associations were removed (through clever marketing/packaging), it could work.

[wordwill.livejournal.com]

As several people here have alluded to, an RPG with all the components needed to play may be able to break out into the mass market were it to be mistaken for something other than an RPG. Though we have examples of this we can examine, like the MB board game HeroQuest, which is what happens who you package an RPG with all the necessary components, except for the RP part.

I've seen mock-ups of games that focus on RP and are utterly self-contained, and I believe they could enter into the mass-market as "imagination games" or "storytelling games," if we can agree that they are, more or less, RPGs.

Someone who knows better than me should also bring up the Pokemon adventure game, which is another example of this theory in action, and apparently sold gangbusters by RPG standards.

[cassandra-e.livejournal.com]

The Pokemon Jr. Adventure Game was the first thing I thought of in the discussion of mass-marketing RPGs. My son received it as a gift and it took about 30 seconds' study for me to realize, "Hey, this is a Pokemon role-playing game!" (Although it was all over the living room two weeks ago, I cannot find it to refer to now.)

The game is a little bit like a choose-your-own-path adventure except that it has a moderator (not the term used in the game), which the instructions assume to be a parent. The parent reads text aloud to the player(s), stops at key points to ask for a decision, and then carries on based on the decision. The main thing it needed to be an RPG was a note at the end that said, "Use your imagination to think of even more adventures like the one in this book!"

The game was easy enough that my daughter and son were able to play it together at ages 8 and 6; all it takes is a reasonably fluent reader. Prior knowledge of the Pokemon "world" is helpful; play would be not be as much fun otherwise.

The game did indeed come with everything needed to play; just open the box, read the instructions and go. The package is a tuck box with a slide-out tray. It is (going by memory here) about 3x6 inches and about 2 inches deep. The box could be displayed hanging, like collectible card sets. (Photos of the box and contents are available at http://www.boardgamegeek.com/images/game/1625)

[elissa-carey.livejournal.com]

Put simply: Agreed. The average consumer is lazy as hell and wants all required resources already at his fingertips. If he's got to get even a d6 from another boardgame, chances are good that you'll lose him.

Yep, I'm kind of a pessimist when it comes to the mass market. :)

[emessar.livejournal.com]

When I was a kid I used to think that eventually everyone would play Tabletop RPG's. To me, it was the most fun a person could have (hey, I was in grade school). I tried to get all kinds of people into it that just couldn't get into it.

I think that Tabletop just takes too much work for most people to appreciate, particularly for a GM. If you could package a GM with every box set, you might have a working model. Most people need either set, easily understood boundaries in a game (card games, boardgames, etc.) or they need something like a computer that takes care of all the rules and environments for them. The mass market doesn't get the idea that Colonel Mustard might have a life outside solving mysteries in a mansion, and that in RISK it's important to take over Madagascar because there's a mad scientist in a cave working on a secret weapon that will lead to world domination.

It's true that AH, MB, TSR, and others have produced various hybrid games: Dungeon!, Hero Quest, Arkham Horror, DragonStrike, Magic Realm, and others. While some of these games are fun, their lack of an open environment and continuity makes most people play them more as boardgames or wargames, rather than RPG's.

What I could see in the not-too-distant future is computer/internet based RPG's taking steps toward a more tabletop-like environment (granted, not within the perview of your postulate). Once a computer game company creates a good MMO with an advanced, easy to use, open-source content creation system, game modders and would-be designers will start feeding an endless stream of content into a game world and create an infinitely more immersive environment than what we see today with MMO's

Even then, with Fantasy adventurer names like Cheeseypoofs and Shastacola, I'm reluctant to attach the RP to MMORPG's.

... in other news, your interview is now posted over at the We Are Not Cool (http://wearenotcool.org/) podcast.

[cedrictheblack.livejournal.com]

I think a mass market RPG would have to come in as a sort of starter set that was a complete game in and of itself. It would have to be unthreateningly garbed (so no obvious D&D style trappings) and have a more game-like mechanic verses the rules heavy mechanics seen in modern RPGs.

Yes, it would HAVE to have everything in the box. But I'd see an entry level product relying less on traditional book keeping and have something more akin to the damage counter used in Pokemon, or markers like in Magic.

Each player gets a 'character sheet' that's the size of a 1/2 sheet of paper printed on cardboard, with pictures of the character all relevant info and lovelt illumination all over it. The back having more pictures and a nice but irrelevant bio for the caracter.

Each play also has a seperate card to track HP, Spellpoints, whatever with tokens. This gets left on the table top, but the players are free to wave the character sheets all over without losing track of anything.

There would have to be a board, preferably with randomizable terrain, so many different adventures can be played on one board (a la heroscape) with later 'expansions adding more terrain and mosters. All the heroes and all the basic monsters have figs included in the set.

A later expansion allows the players to create their own heroes . .thus sucking them into the mire . .I mean wonderful word of RPGs. Bwahahahaah!

Treasure, special items, all come on seperate cards that, like Magic cards, can be 'equipped on the character.