[RPG Theory] D&D 4e Superpowers

[stevekenson]

While working on some Mutants & Masterminds stuff this morning, I idly wondered what it would be like to apply the power structure of D&D 4e to the superhero genre: on the one hand, it would be an odd artificial limiting of some powers to “daily” and “encounter” usages. On the other hand, it might model the idea of rarely-used powers and “power stunts,” the things superheroes do sometimes, but not regularly. The “special” and “finishing” moves.

Indeed, the limited-use powers sort of address what I call the “Form Blazing Sword!” problem in dramatic terms: if a character has a big “special move,” why not bust it out right away? If it’s a one-shot thing, however, players are more inclined to wait for that big dramatic moment when it’ll do the most good: for the decisive attack against the big bad, or the action that turns the tide of a fight. This is especially true for daily/encounter powers designed to come into play later in an encounter, requiring the user (or target) be bloodied, for example.

While I think the D&D 4e framework would still need a fair amount of modification to work for four-color superheroes, in many ways it’s closer to start off with than D&D 3e was when I was first designing M&M. When Wizards gets around to doing other RPGs based on the 4e engine, it’ll be interesting to see.

Comments

[samaritan1975.livejournal.com]

The 'daily' and 'encounter' uses might also model the 'fighting game' genre, a la Street Fighter, now that you mention it...

[rob-donoghue.livejournal.com]

I might be more inclined to switch to a currency model to capture that sensibility. Start with your basic attacks, but each time you use one you get a point, and more potent abilities cost N points. Toss in alternate ways to accumulate currency (like, you start the fight with currency if it's your arch nemesis or the like) and that seems to capture the right pacing.

This ends up working doubly well if you stick with a more fixed model for NPCs, with normal at wills and per encounter. Daily powers are really per encounter for most NPCs, but for real villains, I might give them an alternate currency, that increments based on how many times they've fought the heroes in a particular arc, or more simply have their "daily" ability really be a "First encounter" "Second encounter" and so on. This also lets you do things like make the early powers more escape oriented and the last one full of whupass.

[foreign-devilry.livejournal.com]

Rob's plan is good. Also, it could model stuff like Spider-Man running out of web fluid cartridges, which has always been a turning point in some of my favorite Spidey stories. What do you do when one of your main tactics has been depleted?

[codrus.livejournal.com]

While I like the at-will/encounter/daily structure, it still has some of the same problems as it did in Book of Nine Swords. The main one being, "why not unload with your biggest power on round 1?" If you knock Doctor Doom down on round 1, life becomes a lot easier. :)

For example, over on enworld, there's a sample fight that some guys did against the Terrasque. It never actually got to act, because every round, someone was able to hit it with a daily power that stunned or otherwise prevented it from taking an action. That's not particularly heroic.

I do think that having daily powers hinge more on the player's circumstances is one good way to address this. Similar to your suggestion, but only being able to activate daily powers when bloodied is one good possibility. Maybe that can be overridden with action points -- by definition, if you are spending an action point, you are trying for a cinematic moment.

[senatorhatty.livejournal.com]

This is a fantastic idea, and I am sad I never thought about it. I guess I didn't play enough of those console fighting games.

[kosmic.livejournal.com]

I was one of the ones who waited and waited and waited for d20 Spectaculars, before all d20 Modern activity ceased. Yet, after the announcement of 4e, there was a flicker of hope when the devs mentioned being inspired by the show Heroes. So it might be possible to see Spectaculars in 2012-2013 (if Modern comes out on 2011). So its a good amount of time to think about it.

I guess the problem I see with a 4e model is how are you going to do the powers on the 4e model without limiting it? I suppose since 4e uses a model similar to WoW, something like City of Heroes could be used as a template.

Controllers would equate to COX Controllers (obviously) and Dominators.

Defenders would equate to Tanks and Brutes. A beefed up scrapper could fit here as well (my L50 Dark Melee/Regen plays tank sometimes)

Leaders would equate to Defenders and Corruptors (as defined by their role in Team Support). The Villain ATs of Wolf Spiders and Blood Widows would fall into this category, as they have leadership build right into their sets. Masterminds should fall in here as well, since they have minions to direct.

Striker would equate to Blasters, Scrappers, Stalkers, as well as the Kheldian epic ATs.

Obviously the archetypes would have to be reworked a bit to fit into the 4e model, but the basis is there. You could still offer a lot of variety in power sets, but like COH/COX each power set would be slightly different. An electricity based Brute is vastly different than an electricity based Blaster.

The main issue is putting the powers into the categories and putting level limits on them. But like you mentioned, and bolstered by the City of Heroes model, higher level powers would incorporate feats and stunts right in them, special meneuvers (the various types of nukes that blasters and corruptors have come to mind).

Come to think about it, the 4e model might fit in the Super genre more than D&D. Though drop in 4e modeled supers IN D&D and then you have a game which is akin to Final Fantasy/Mortal Kombat in style.

[darktouch.livejournal.com]

Funnily enough, one of the things I've noticed during the edition war threads on EN world is that a number of things people don't like out of 4E are things that M&M had long since broken me of in my past 4 years of playing it. Not using the same rules to construct NPCs as PCs for instance.. and yes, I see similarities between Power Stunting with extra effort and Encounter/Daily powers. (As for the setting/cannon stuff I think I got over that when WW overhauled the World of Darkness).

Random thought to the "Why not bust it out on the first round" conundrum: What about using the Recharge mechanic on some powers. There's the random chance recharge (18-20 on a D20 at the beginning of my round) or the triggered recharge (when you are first bloodied.. or when you first touch a shadow).

Not sure I'd give up M&M but there I would definitely be interested in seeing ways to make characters more mobile and team oriented during combat.

[gamerguy.livejournal.com]

Interesting. Do you think they'll bother with trying to actually create another RPG off the engine, or just stick entirely with D&D supplements like they did last time?

[xomec.livejournal.com]

I have no idea what WotC's plans are; I imagine putting out D&D stuff will keep them busy for a while, but the fact they bothered to create a new d20 System logo suggests to me they want to eventually expand the system beyond D&D.