[RPG Theory] Sliding Scale Conflicts

[stevekenson]

So I’m thinking about confict resolution in RPGs (which includes most RPGs’ favorite form of conflict, combat) and considering certain approaches which essentially eliminate the possibility of “one-hit wins” (or losses), that is, where you simply cannot win a conflict with a single roll of the dice. Kind of a reverse of the “minion” type rules popular in some games, where you can (and do) win conflicts with inconsequential characters in one go, something that ensures major conflicts in the game have a certain back-and-forth exchange to them before one side decisively wins. This connects up to earlier thoughts on Building Towards Success on a smaller scale (encounter rather than entire story/adventure).

The fun thing about it is you can have a “sliding scale” of conflict based on just how important the encounter really is: from “it’s not worth rolling dice, you just do it” to “it’s going to take several rolls and completing multiple minor steps/challenges to achieve success.” Plus similar types of encounters don’t all need to be resolved in the same way. Some fights (such as with the aforementioned inconsequential minions) may be summarized as “so, how do you whup their butts?” without a single die thrown to tense back-and-forth conflicts as both sides jockey for advantage and eventual victory.

To use d20 as an example, it would be like having (at least) three combat systems: the standard attack roll + damage roll, with all the fixin’s (hit points, combat maneuvers and such), a simple opposed check (with the higher result winning the fight), and a simple comparison, with the higher value winning automatically, if it comes down to a fight, all based on how significant the fight is to the overall adventure. Of course, the issue where d20 is concerned is that the middle option might be too variable in outcome if it relies on a single d20 roll. This whole approach may work better in systems with bell-shaped probability curves.

Comments

[mswafford.livejournal.com]

the standard attack roll + damage roll, with all the fixin’s (hit points, combat maneuvers and such)

Tried and true and it's what everyone is used to. Nothing wrong with it but it tends to be cliche' and tired.

a simple opposed check (with the higher result winning the fight)

Depends on how badly the winner beats the loser. A one point difference could just mean the winner just narrowly escapes with his life or does minimal damage. However, if the winner beats the loser by, say, ten points the winner rips asunder the loser.

and a simple comparison, with the higher value winning automatically

Too many variables that can be taken into account. Even a lowly goblin can get lucky against a 20th Paladin...once. Just a simple comparison loses sight of those variables and it just becomes boring. It works for some games, but I think most gamers are looking for the unpredictability of the dice. I know I do.

BTW my name is Mark and I work Talisman Studios (http://www.talismanstudios.info) with Sean Fannon not some random stalker fanboy.

[xomec.livejournal.com]

Too many variables that can be taken into account. Even a lowly goblin can get lucky against a 20th Paladin...once.

Sure, and those are the cases when the conflict shifts to a "higher" level, because it's important. That's the point. However, it won't necessarily become important randomly (which some might see as a feature, others as a bug).

Of course, I'd also quibble about the ability of a 4 hp, +2 attack bonus goblin being able to "get luck" against a 100 hp, +20 attack paladin with a +5 Holy Avenger (because, really, what 20th level paladin doesn't have a Holy Avenger?). Even if our poor goblin gets a natural 20 and hits for maximum damage (let's be kind and say it's 8 hp), he's have to do it again another 12 times before the paladin (who can only miss on a natural 1 and can't roll less damage than the goblin's hp) outright kills him.

[mswafford.livejournal.com]

Yeah I'm still thinking in terms of the 'one-hit kill' scenario that seems to come up in most game systems nowadays.

Don't get me wrong, I agree that even the lowly 1/2 hit die goblin should have a chance (miniscule as it should be) to take down a 20th level paladin. That's one thing that has bothered me in the past about D&D (among other things), there is no chance of that happening.

But let's be real, when's the last time you saw a single goblin take on a paladin? There's always a some trap awaiting the paladin or even 99 of the goblins brethren waiting in the shadows.

[xomec.livejournal.com]

But let's be real, when's the last time you saw a single goblin take on a paladin?

Well, you're the one who brought it up... ::grin::

Seriously, though, I think it depends a great deal on the context. The basic idea is about just how detailed and drawn-out the resolution of a particular conflict needs to be. Sometimes it's an important scene, other times not. Sometimes heroes wade through legions of lesser foes, other times its a tense battle across the parapets until the final blow is given.

Moreover, the type of conflict resolution might vary by genre and tone as well as context (or by genre and tone as part of overall context): hapless horror characters aren't as likely to have drawn out combats, but they will have drawn out investigations, which is their primary type of conflict or challenge. So you can stretch and and empahsize the important parts of the story, and compress and simplify the less important ones.

[mswafford.livejournal.com]

Well, you're the one who brought it up...

Yeah I know. Guilty. :)

So if I'm understanding you correctly, the single goblin v. Paladin wouldn't really need a dice roll (the outcome is pretty much self-explanatory) but the slobbering horde backing up the single goblin would be a different story?

I can wrap my mind around that. I still think the system used would have serious bearing on it. D20? I don't see the goblin handing out much damage and surviving very long. Savage Worlds or even Runequest? The goblin would definitely have a chance (yet again slight) to slaughter the paladin. It's all a matter of luck and the system used.

With D20, you succeed or fail, that's it. Sure you have crits and fumbles, but their scope is fairly limited. There are more and more games coming out that actually deal with degrees of success.

Or course the GM more than likely has a certain amount of information to pass on to the characters during the course of the game, which makes 'degrees' pointless in those cases.

[egfrost.livejournal.com]

Sorry to drift into thread necromancy here, but I've just discovered your journal, and this reminded me in particular of an exalted campaign (1sr ed). I think it was in the Storytelling section of 'The Lunars' but they actually advocated a similar style of adjudicating combat. Exalted always had ways to determine between BBEG encounters and the ninja minions, but they emphasized an almost completely narrative result when the power gap grew too large. For example, and this is how I remember it "there's no need to actually roll out combat against a mortal army, when your elder lunars encounter it, just discuss it briefly with your players, and assess the appropriate (small) amount of health levels/or essense spent.

Granted, lunars heal themselves and essense replenishes, so it's less of an issue, but the basis seemed pretty clear. In fact, when I was running my high powered abyssals game I adapted a similar system. After about essence 4 or 5, mortals were essentially set dressing, low powered terrestrials, gods and demons were minions, and full combat mechanics were for essense 6 and above DBs, Celestials, and Big Scary Demons. It seemed to work pretty well, though I must admit the fact that one of my players could literally mow down every mortal in Creation if they'd only stand close enough together helped. I'm not sure if it would work nearly as well in a non mythic setting, though. Exalted, Superheroes, and /possibly/ high end D&D, though it that case, it tends to be less narrative, and more just futility of rolling. (When the sorceror is tossing around multiple maximized, empowered fireballs in goblin villages, or when the warforged juggernaut jumps off the airship at level 20. Rolling is just silly, in those cases, so you assign casualties or damage, and move on.)